Mary Fleener was the guest-editor of The Comics Journal issue #237, "Comics-Gal-ore." I got to know her a little bit over the last couple of months and didn't want to pass up the chance to do a little interview with the creator of Slutburger and Life of the Party on being a woman in comics, a subject she obviously felt strongly enough about to devote an entire themed issue of TCJ.

ANNE ELIZABETH MOORE: Finally, Mary, it's all over. How do you feel about the women's issue now that it's all done? Anything you would have done differently? How are you responding to the (and we both knew this was coming) endless lists of "who's-missing"s and "why-not-me"s?

MARY FLEENER: I had two goals: do the things in a magazine I'd always wanted to see or felt TCJ was lacking, and secondly, edit a "women's issue" that covered topics I always felt were lacking in similiar books. Also, approach the subject with a friggin' sense of humor, something that is lacking from most women's publications.

And am I glad it's over. I worked on this issue for ten months. My strategy was to do a little every day and then it wouldn't seem so bad. That worked for awhile. I think my emotional and intellectual state of mind ranged from the very heights of creative trail-blazing satisfaction to cynical self-pity! Putting the cover together was an awesome task but I had a clear vision of what I wanted, so I had to do it! Plus this got me in touch with 59 artists and put me on the trail to many other names that were new to me.

Sure, there's quite a few people missing from this issue. I can't believe I forgot to mention or use Holly Tuttle on the cover -- she was in Dennis Eichhorn's Real Stuff. A great talent. Artists who didn't have e-mail or who lived in other countries got exactly one phone call from me and if they didn't respond, then I had no time to spoon feed 'em. I also wish we had more room for European comic artists, and others outside the U.S.. Anyone out there who wants to do "Comics Gal-ore... Part 2," be my guest!!

I think both of us have mixed feelings about "women's only" projects and wanted to finally do one that wasn't totally political and boring. As my friend Robert Kirby wrote: "...even though women shouldn't have to be separated into their own issue of that magazine anymore, it's sure cool when it happens."

MOORE: How much sexism do you feel like you personally experience in the comics industry?

FLEENER: I had a phrase I was using recently: "It takes a Real Man to be a Sexist Pig," and if I were encountering sexism that I could really identify, I would know how to handle it and how to respond. So, I can honestly say, that no, I haven't ever been passed over for a guy, I seem to receive the same lousy pay as any other cartoonist and in fact, I think being a woman has been an advantage. What I do find, is a majority of "comic guys" are lacking in social skills, they are withdrawn, and yet they are smug, as if they possess some "knowledge" that you do not.

Dan Clowes really nailed it on the head with Pussey!. Walk into any comic book shop, and you'll see what I mean. Go to a comic convention and witness guys who can't talk to a real girl, but who can argue for hours about superheroes. And this goes for my fellow artists and even some publishers too. They simply prefer to be around men. They seem more relaxed when they are around other guys. This is not sexism, but someone needs to invent another word for it. All I know is, I find it exceedingly annoying! (The phrase of the year!)

MOORE: Did you learn anything new about your field from working on this issue?

FLEENER: I think everybody else on the cover did. Almost everybody had the same comment; "I'm out of the loop. I don't know what's going on!" I learned quite a bit about my fellow artists and their egos, and some of the people I thought would be a pain were really professional and a pleasure to deal with.

MOORE: So, really. Can I have Thanksgiving with you and Marie Severin? Or just tea, sometime.

FLEENER: Tea? Hell, let's grab a couple o' brews!!

Marie is someone who likes to have fun. Oh, she's nobody's fool. When it's time to talk serious, she has an opinion and is very wise with her words. Even though she goes to Mass every Sunday, she is a free thinker. She wanted to see my Eros Comix, and when I said "I dunno, Marie, are you sure?" She said "Well, that's how we all got here!! God wouldn't have given us the equipment if it weren't to be enjoyed!!"

I met her in 1996, and still hadn't shown her any of my comic work, so last week I sent her pretty much everything I'd done. Her first comment was: "Mary, you're so honest!" About Nipplez 'n' Tum Tum [she said]: "Gosh, there certainly are a lot of penises in there, Mary! Hahahahahah! You can probably draw 'em in your sleep now, huh?"

MOORE: You told me once that you felt connected to Marie Severin partially because you both learned to read later -- in the fourth grade was it? And now you write as part of your career. How awesome are you? Does this early childhood stuff ever make you feel like an outsider?

FLEENER: I'd bullshitted my way to the fourth grade by being a little actress. While everybody was paying attention to the teacher, I was busy drawing in my notebook, oblivious to the world. Since I was good at art, the teachers thought I was just a lazy kid, but yep, one day a teacher sat me down, and demanded I read the first chapter of a book, and I couldn't even get to the second sentence. I was 9 years old.

All hell broke loose at home and my father began to tutor me every night. There was no discussion! Then our family moved to Vancouver, Canada and they had a reading program called "SRA," and I responded and began devouring Nancy Drew books. I read all of 'em. I guess I was dyslexic, but nobody knew what that was. I had teachers verbally abuse me in class and call me stupid and a loser, but I knew, deep down that someday I was gonna show all these assholes and besides, my art teachers loved me, so I didn't care what they said or did. I saw kids utterly destroyed by this behavior, something I was determined wouldn't happen to me.

When we moved back to the States I was so advanced in reading that I was able to skip several semesters of English classes, but that Canadian school system is tough. They have corporal punishment and I saw kids get slapped in class all the time. They do not encourage individualism and rebellion is not tolerated. Since I was an American, I was considered hopeless! To say I was a non-conformist in dress and attitude during high school would be an understatement! But I wasn't a troublemaker, and I actually liked a lot of my teachers. I knew their job was tough and they didn't get paid very well. Do I still feel like an outsider? Yes, and I have to be careful it doesn't turn into paranoia.

MOORE: Was Nipplez 'n' Tum Tum your first crack at deliberate full-on porn? How do you like working in that field with the likes of Molly Kiely and Sandra Chang?

FLEENER: Yes, this was my "first time" (blush). It wasn't all that different from the autobiographical stuff I've done, there was just more sex. But, since it was Eros, I was deliberate in putting at least one sex act per page or a naked breast. This was to offset the fact that I actually had a plotline and humor! Erik Gilbert, up at Last Gasp, who knows about these things, showed me all these raunchy sex comics and I took notes! He told me "the punters" were only interested in "The Pink and The Meat," (but that's the JO crowd*, and I can't understand why they'd buy a comic for that purpose when there are all these photo mags available.)

Anyway, I liked drawing this comic and I find that porn is an even more effective way to make fun of society and people. Also, anyone walking into a comic shop knows exactly where to find my comic now, no ifs, ands, or buts!

I think it's great that there are four women doing Eros Comix, especially such classy babes like Molly, Sandra and Colleen. I'm a little afraid to meet that Giovanna Casotto, though...

MOORE: Yeah, I guess your previous stuff would have been a little hard to locate. Are you going to do any more non-naked comics in the upcoming years, or is it just gonna be all naked, all the time from now on?

FLEENER: Well, after the daunting task of upholding the genteel esteem of a culturally acknowledged publication such as The Comics Journal, I am now reverting to an infantile state and working with clay. I'm having a ceramics show in November, at the famous Ducky Waddles in Encinitas. I'm making both wheel-thrown and hand-built pieces. The pots are decorated in my comix cubismo designs and some of them look like Eros Comix -- I call these my "porno pots." Naturally, they are the first to sell. After that, I want to begin work on a project with Poppy Z. Brite. I have an idea to adapt one of her horror stories into a 48-page comic book. I don't have a publisher yet, but I'm going to do it anyway. After a year of deadline hell, I need to do this in my own fashion, with no pressure, and I need to fly to New Orleans to check out the place!

I also want to do another Nipplez 'n' Tum Tum. I'm putting together a website right now.

MOORE: Jeez, a recovering editor, ceramics artist, pornographer and a rock star?

FLEENER: "Recovering Editor" -- absolutely. "Ceramics Artist" -- I can hold my own. "Pornographer" -- I have much to learn. "Rock Star" -- I am now officially in the category I call "Old Black Blues Men." When I was a teenager, all these hippie bands would have some old guys playing the blues, because none of the white kids could get it right. My husband and I are now getting gigs all the time because we play old school rock, something that you don't hear much anymore, and the kids are hungry for it. I've been writing songs again. Four months ago I wrote one called "The End of the World":

The end of the world, what a beautiful sight.
There'll be plenty of parking tonight.
The end of the world, it'll be on TV.
The Land of Less People for you and me.

Kinda creepy, huh?

* "JO crowd," as Mary had to explain to me, means "Jack-Off crowd." - AEM